Thank you, Andrew, this is a well articulated description of a real problem. I agree with your analysis, but I wonder what you suggest we do about it. What are the ways to make personal progress in addressing this problem, in your view? How do we become able to tolerate and repudiate the shaming that comes to us when we step into challenging the safe conversation in our personal and professional lives?
The challenge is to get over taking offense and thinking it should be different than it is. We're not victims. What's needed is to realize that our allegiance is to the higher truth, to God if you can use that language and it doesn't matter what they say, not even a little bit. If there's lies and shaming of various kinds be as good with that as if they fall down at our feet, saying "you're right, you're right, forgive us." Literally being the same with it. Because if we make it be about what other's think, there's no end to it.
Thank you Andrew, you have articulated well the silent sufferings of men and the impact that this has on women. Brilliant! I would definitely like to meet you and discuss the work I am doing at www.softenthefuckup.com ..... Bravo mate, Bravo
Are you presenting a personal perspective rather than one that is true for men and women generally?
As a coach working with both, one on one and in groups, I don't find what you say to be accurate.
Some men, some women, fall into the categories you describe but it's long past in my experience that it is true for the majority that there is an imbalance.
Any imbalance of power in society between men and women exists only in the mind of the person that believes that exists.
I posted a poem here recently to point to where our reality is created. Based on feedback I've expanded it. I suggest that this is where problems exist.
LIFE UNBRIDLED – A MAP TO POSSIBILITY
Seeing beyond our frozen fears and imagined needs lies another realm,
a realm unrivalled.
Seeing beyond our beliefs, opinions and judgements –
of being right and making others wrong – is another state,
a state of wisdom and common sense.
Seeing beyond anger, violence, murder and mayhem,
our inner peace and equanimity reside.
Seeing beyond racism, nationalism, communism, capitalism – freed of all isms –
we live unhindered by our conditioned minds and hardened hearts.
Seeing beyond acceptance and tolerance is another world –
a world of kindness and understanding.
Seeing beyond theology, philosophy, science and certainty –
a life of openness exists.
Seeing beyond our need for more, better, different,
we discover satisfaction with what we have.
Seeing beyond our alcoholism, drug addiction, gluttony – all forms of self-harm –
we see what is and wake up.
And yes:
Seeing beyond our crimes, arrests, trials and incarcerations –
a pure heart is beating.
Seeing beyond all conflicts, wars, dominance, and control,
and just one thought away –
even a mind appearing psychopathic and a heart seeming fractured –
like President Putin’s,
or simply a couple lost in their day-to-day disagreements,
our innate desire for peace remains.
And finally:
Seeing beyond this story, your story, their story – every story ever written or told,
our life is unbridled.
And there, before our lifelong accumulation,
an all-embracing warmth melts the edges of division,
dissolving the illusion of you and me, of them and us.
There IS a life unbridled. Many others live lives of quiet desperation," as Thoreau called it. I think we'd get more of the unbridledness with honest public discourse but individuals are responsible for themselves too.
I've not met a person that hadn't been at cause in their "quiet desperation".
Having conversations about the problem without understanding the fundamental cause of any and all human problems entrenches the status quo and turns those with a problem into perennial victims.
Until we see that we are at cause in our human created psychological/spiritual problems we remain the problem.
Yes, I think we're individuals who are at cause but we're not ONLY individuals. We're also members of groups that exert claims on us - think soldiers in battle together. Or married couples.
We're both individuals and members of groups. Much individual perception and behavior is based in the group just as children are formed in their families. But I think you're right that we don't cease being responsible for our actions because of this.
John, you really get accountability - which is the chief masculine value, and I appreciate that. But you seem to be short on compassion, which is the chief feminine value, and is over-used these days, since our culture has become predominantly feminine since the 1960s. It is heroic to hold to accountability in these feminine times, but it is still unbalanced.
There is the world that we have created, and also the world that others have created. We are 100% accountable as you say, but also 100% victims. It is difficult to hold both of these poles at the same time, since they seem to be in conflict: accountability vs. compassion. Most of us simply polarize, give one priority over the other, make one primary and the other secondary. That makes understanding the world easier, but less accurate, less effective. It results in a perspective that feels powerfully right, but that is incomplete.
Following is a synopsis of how I experience my life, and life per se.
I feel compassion for my fellow humans - however they identify. I hold only myself accountable.
Moment to moment, I look to see beyond belief, opinion, judgement and knowledge - there I find kindness, understanding, wisdom and common sense moment to moment.
How I show up in the world is the best contribution I can make. Compassion and accountability come from the same ground of being.
Hey Woody! long time... many years... As I've aged (76) and my much abused physical body breaks down... I find I'm more willing to compromise... Yes, I can see when and where there is a lack of "equalness", and so I must accept, and struggle on, here in the "injury time" at the end of my game! Be well! Jamie
I'm at a loss. Maybe age related, I'm 80. You seem to know me. Your name rings a bell but I can't place you. A littly more information could clear the mist. Warmly ... Woody
OK! Got you. Andrew is the only person from that time I'm still in contact with.
The men's movment - like the women's movement is a trap. Both come from thinking that we (men and women) are victimes of the other when in fact we are only ever victims of our own thinking.
I know it doesn't look like that and that is because humanity is still wedded to being victims of the other or of their circumstances.
I realise that you probably won't agree and nor will Andrew or any others that subscribe to this forum but I fly the flag for individual consciousness that takes us beyond victimhood.
Thank you, Andrew, this is a well articulated description of a real problem. I agree with your analysis, but I wonder what you suggest we do about it. What are the ways to make personal progress in addressing this problem, in your view? How do we become able to tolerate and repudiate the shaming that comes to us when we step into challenging the safe conversation in our personal and professional lives?
The challenge is to get over taking offense and thinking it should be different than it is. We're not victims. What's needed is to realize that our allegiance is to the higher truth, to God if you can use that language and it doesn't matter what they say, not even a little bit. If there's lies and shaming of various kinds be as good with that as if they fall down at our feet, saying "you're right, you're right, forgive us." Literally being the same with it. Because if we make it be about what other's think, there's no end to it.
Thank you Andrew, you have articulated well the silent sufferings of men and the impact that this has on women. Brilliant! I would definitely like to meet you and discuss the work I am doing at www.softenthefuckup.com ..... Bravo mate, Bravo
Brave project Scott! and clearly put out. Happy to connect!
Dear Andrew
Are you presenting a personal perspective rather than one that is true for men and women generally?
As a coach working with both, one on one and in groups, I don't find what you say to be accurate.
Some men, some women, fall into the categories you describe but it's long past in my experience that it is true for the majority that there is an imbalance.
Any imbalance of power in society between men and women exists only in the mind of the person that believes that exists.
I posted a poem here recently to point to where our reality is created. Based on feedback I've expanded it. I suggest that this is where problems exist.
LIFE UNBRIDLED – A MAP TO POSSIBILITY
Seeing beyond our frozen fears and imagined needs lies another realm,
a realm unrivalled.
Seeing beyond our beliefs, opinions and judgements –
of being right and making others wrong – is another state,
a state of wisdom and common sense.
Seeing beyond anger, violence, murder and mayhem,
our inner peace and equanimity reside.
Seeing beyond racism, nationalism, communism, capitalism – freed of all isms –
we live unhindered by our conditioned minds and hardened hearts.
Seeing beyond acceptance and tolerance is another world –
a world of kindness and understanding.
Seeing beyond theology, philosophy, science and certainty –
a life of openness exists.
Seeing beyond our need for more, better, different,
we discover satisfaction with what we have.
Seeing beyond our alcoholism, drug addiction, gluttony – all forms of self-harm –
we see what is and wake up.
And yes:
Seeing beyond our crimes, arrests, trials and incarcerations –
a pure heart is beating.
Seeing beyond all conflicts, wars, dominance, and control,
and just one thought away –
even a mind appearing psychopathic and a heart seeming fractured –
like President Putin’s,
or simply a couple lost in their day-to-day disagreements,
our innate desire for peace remains.
And finally:
Seeing beyond this story, your story, their story – every story ever written or told,
our life is unbridled.
And there, before our lifelong accumulation,
an all-embracing warmth melts the edges of division,
dissolving the illusion of you and me, of them and us.
Our true self revealed – humanity’s innocence understood – the unknown embraced.
This internal, eternal universe is home – is love.
Our mind’s at peace, a new reality seen, a life fulfilled.
Our life of decency creating a world of Possibility.
With love ... John
Hi John, I like your poem, simple and direct.
There IS a life unbridled. Many others live lives of quiet desperation," as Thoreau called it. I think we'd get more of the unbridledness with honest public discourse but individuals are responsible for themselves too.
Hi Andrew,
I've not met a person that hadn't been at cause in their "quiet desperation".
Having conversations about the problem without understanding the fundamental cause of any and all human problems entrenches the status quo and turns those with a problem into perennial victims.
Until we see that we are at cause in our human created psychological/spiritual problems we remain the problem.
Hi John,
Yes, I think we're individuals who are at cause but we're not ONLY individuals. We're also members of groups that exert claims on us - think soldiers in battle together. Or married couples.
We're both individuals and members of groups. Much individual perception and behavior is based in the group just as children are formed in their families. But I think you're right that we don't cease being responsible for our actions because of this.
Yes, Andrew. However the world we see is the world we have created. We have either forgoten that, or never realised that.
Therefore it isn't the fault of others how we show up in the world. That is our responsibility -100%.
And complying with the laws of the land is just one price we must pay for living in society. That's the deal in a democracy.
Too bad. We vote one lot out and get much the same with the next lot in.
That's also the price we pay for too many of us living in an unconscious state.
Warmly ... John
John, you really get accountability - which is the chief masculine value, and I appreciate that. But you seem to be short on compassion, which is the chief feminine value, and is over-used these days, since our culture has become predominantly feminine since the 1960s. It is heroic to hold to accountability in these feminine times, but it is still unbalanced.
There is the world that we have created, and also the world that others have created. We are 100% accountable as you say, but also 100% victims. It is difficult to hold both of these poles at the same time, since they seem to be in conflict: accountability vs. compassion. Most of us simply polarize, give one priority over the other, make one primary and the other secondary. That makes understanding the world easier, but less accurate, less effective. It results in a perspective that feels powerfully right, but that is incomplete.
Thank you, David.
Following is a synopsis of how I experience my life, and life per se.
I feel compassion for my fellow humans - however they identify. I hold only myself accountable.
Moment to moment, I look to see beyond belief, opinion, judgement and knowledge - there I find kindness, understanding, wisdom and common sense moment to moment.
How I show up in the world is the best contribution I can make. Compassion and accountability come from the same ground of being.
Warmly ... John
Hey Woody! long time... many years... As I've aged (76) and my much abused physical body breaks down... I find I'm more willing to compromise... Yes, I can see when and where there is a lack of "equalness", and so I must accept, and struggle on, here in the "injury time" at the end of my game! Be well! Jamie
Hello Jamie
I'm at a loss. Maybe age related, I'm 80. You seem to know me. Your name rings a bell but I can't place you. A littly more information could clear the mist. Warmly ... Woody
We attended Saffire Canyon, Colorado, USA, back in the early '90's.
I suspected so Jamie. My memory is below par. Were you the musician?
No, that was Shawn... I'm the "other" Canadian... beside Andrew!
OK! Got you. Andrew is the only person from that time I'm still in contact with.
The men's movment - like the women's movement is a trap. Both come from thinking that we (men and women) are victimes of the other when in fact we are only ever victims of our own thinking.
I know it doesn't look like that and that is because humanity is still wedded to being victims of the other or of their circumstances.
I realise that you probably won't agree and nor will Andrew or any others that subscribe to this forum but I fly the flag for individual consciousness that takes us beyond victimhood.
Warmly ... John